this is getting me so angry. why the fuck are 13 year olds doing stupid ass shit like this.

he and/or his accomplice get tried as an adult?

my inclination is 'no' but i'm on the fence. they did an abhorrent thing, but i don't think that the perpetrators of this crime knew the kind of damage that their actions would inflict on a young life, a family, and a community.

i'm open to other interpretations of the events though

May Minghui Yu rest in peace and may his family and friends find some end to their grief.

Ask yourselves, how would Yu's family feel towards this 13yr old? Would they be mad? Would they forgive?

considering they are responsible for the death of their only child, I would have to go with 'mad' although I think that word choice may just hint a little at your righteous morals.

i dont think it matters much whether or not the perpetrators knew the potential damage they would cause...they were beating him up (and who knows if they had any weapons), causing mr. yu to run across the street and to his death.. rip

so, so, so sad.

has he been bar-mitzvahed?

Disappointing. Juvenile second-degree manslaughter? He'll probably get off with a few months.

Then he'll be back on the street beating people up for NO reason.

"Look what I do to this one" were his words upon starting to beat Mr. Yu up. Completely callous.

This is a kid with deep antisocial tendencies. Unfortunately psychology does not have a cure or effective treatment for this violent illness, and certainly incarceration/punishment does not keep people from doing this again.

But incarceration DOES isolate this sick sort of person from situations where he can do harm to others. Too bad our justice system is based in the 1750s.

2nd degree manslaughter for a 13 year old mugger is a bit hard. I don't think they can prove that the kid was AWARE OF AND CONSCIOUSLY DISREGARDED the possibility that Minghu might flee and be struck by a car and that such a risk was substantial.

the 13 year old could have committed hundreds of muggings in the past where no one was struck by a car and certainly the city sees thousands of street-corner muggings and few-to-none ever result in victims being hit by speeding vehicles.

New York State Penal Code:

S 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.

A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:

1. He recklessly causes the death of another person;

(other two cases are assisted suicide and death by botched abortion)

"Recklessly." A person acts recklessly with respect to a result or

to a circumstance described by a statute defining an offense when he is

aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk

that such result will occur or that such circumstance exists. The risk

must be of such nature and degree that disregard thereof constitutes a

gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person

would observe in the situation. A person who creates such a risk but is

unaware thereof solely by reason of voluntary intoxication also acts

recklessly with respect thereto.

In NY State a 13 year old can only be tried as an adult for 2nd degree murder, not manslaughter.

If he were somehow tried as an adult:

(c) For a class C felony, the term shall be fixed by the court, and

shall not exceed fifteen years;

They can get TRIED as adults, but will be sentenced as juveniles.

The kids in the murder of the NYU student were 13-15, and none of them got off with more than 18 months.

Here's info from somone who claims to be a cop. Apparently the 15 year old has been caught too:

"as someone not willing to admit that i'm not a copper, for your information, the two kids did it out of pure enjoyment-the 15 y/o admitted it. the 13 year-old is still proud that the 'chinese ***** is dead', as i'm typing this to you. the 15 y/o was laughing on the video as it was happening, and now he's 'sorrowful.' "

of course, it doesn't isolate them from other criminals, so they often come out of jail more violent and better connected than they came in. SO they're more likely to go back to jail not because they're naturally antisocial people, but because the justice system has chosen to punish them by ensuring they end up back in jail.

Um, I'm sorry, but you do not understand the psychological causes or symptoms of antisocial personality disorder, known in those under 16 as "conduct disorder."

Those who are never caught remain just as violent as those who serve hard time. IT's not the fault of the criminal justice system. Most people who are subjected to the violence of jail but who are not antisocial will not become hardened criminals afterward because of the experience. That's just an 18th-century myth, not backed up by empirical evidence.

What do you recommend be done to them instead of being put in jail? No meds or therapy in the world can keep antisocial people from disregarding human life and rights or get them to feel empathy toward others.

Will you still say this is one of the safest precincts when these kids are let out of jail with little more than a slap on the wrist? Or will the University continue to ignore the need for security on its northern outskirts?

If you don't believe me, emilyw, look at ethnographic accounts of people who were wrongly incarcerated.

Those who didn't have rap sheets before being put in jail are often severely traumatized after being released, but not violent thugs. Rather, they actually become like caged animals, who once set free, never really feel free again.

They develop Post-traumatic Stress Disorder, not Anti-Social Personality Disorder.

this makes me so happy. i won't comment on what i think the punishment should be or whether he should be tried as an adult or a whatever. right now, i'm just glad that they caught him and that we'll see some sort of justice be served.

I doubt the public defender will be a well-trained Columbia Laywer...

anti-social psychosis? ever think that if you have a society with shit-loads of poverty theres going to be attempted robberies? and saying shit like 'they probably had weapons on them' and the caustic vitriol being directed towards the SUSPECTS has undeniable racial undertones in our societal context. cue neoliberal indignation

They weren't trying to rob him, #18. They just wanted to beat up a Chinese kid. The kid "see what I do to this one" to the 15-year-old before beating him up.

Regardless, you're really going to make that tired argument in New York State? New York State does everything it can to help out the poor members of society. We have free housing, food stamps, free universal healthcare, universal, decent public education, etcetera.

Very few people in New York have to commit crimes to SURVIVE. To get a flat-screen, expensive new sneakers, or a new Benz, maybe, but are you going to tell me everybody is ENTITLED to those things?

In your opinion, what more can be done in New York to end the so-called "shitloads of poverty"?

We already have the most extensive welfare system in the U.S. What now?

your "suspects" were caught on surveillance cameras and have already been caught.

also, robbery is one thing. beating someone up, ganging up on them and kicking them when they're down is another thing. that sort of violence is above and beyond what most people, even most poor people are willing to do. yes, such callous disregard for other human beings is anti-social.

Because "someone who claims to be a cop" is a totally valid source and not simply an excuse for spreading more hate.

sorry, i meant that your "suspects" have already confessed, and were caught on camera.

are you trying to pull the racist card against those who suggest two people who're going to be charged with murder should have to pay a steep price? Not only is your 'they probably had weapons on them' inference to racism a ridiculously pc piece of crap that follows along the most pathetic sort of apologism and race baiting but its just inaccurate. There is almost certainly a correlation between violent criminals and possession of a weapon (not every weapon is a gun). And if these newer accounts are true, these two individuals are actually guilty of a hate crime because they specifically targeted Mr. Yu for being asian.

Sadly, we wont see any marches for Mr. Yu because his murder won't fit into any grandiose narrative of a victim mentality.

The fact these kids are unrepentant is disturbing to me if true. I still don't think a 13 year old should be charged as an adult because they probably don't have the reasoning capacity adults do, but make no mistake--these two are well on their way to becoming monsters (it may be because the society they were in made them that way, but the linchpin will always automatically be poverty despite the fact that you dont always find neat correlations between every poor demographic and youth crime [and there are illuminating examples amongst safe but poor towns of EVERY race]).

And yes they are suspects until they are convicted--the evidence certainly looks overwhelming though considering their is actually visual evidence of them committing the crime. Don't feed us the suspects tripe like you actually care about the rule of law though--go back to advocating for tawana brawley and marching for madeline constatine. Our 'social context' is one that has been poisoned by race baiters and apologists like you.

the AP has backtracked on the robbery claim and is suggesting there is more to the attack

[ external link to www.silive.com ]

I wrote "someone who claims to be a cop" on purpose so that people here could take it with a grain of salt. I guess we'll see in the newspapers tomorrow.

Sounds like a Hate Crime to me. Oh, wait, the victim wasn't black. NEVER MIND.

sources now claiming it might not have been a robbery

and apologists, please don't pretend like you care for rule of law--if the roles were reversed there would already be marches

[ external link to www.ny1.com ]

[ external link to www.nydailynews.com ]

[ external link to gothamist.com ]

is disgusting. I hope those pieces of shit rot in jail. They probably won't though.

execute them

i'll be fair..incidents like this do sometimes provoke unnecessary racism

some of the comments in the gothamist post are appalling

scary/telling how everyone is accepting that ridiculous source....

why is no one marching? this is obviously a hate crime. does the victim have to be black for anyone to care?

Shows you the ridiculous double standards w/regards to racism in America. If he had seen his muggers in the street before they attacked him and crossed to the other side to avoid them he would have probably been labeled a racist.

As for the kid, he should be drawn and quartered. No way is there a chance of making this fuck up a normal member of society.

Maybe if he was bald...

how you're already characterizing it a 'ridiculous' source because it disagrees with the narrative you want

the people who cite it have multiple independent press sources to back it up

you're pathetic individual

if somebody would like to set a march up, i'd gladly join.

God, I didn't know what a shitstorm I'd create by posting the info from the cop. Everyone please try to be reasonable.

He told me that they already have the 15-year-old in custody too, which the newspapers haven't reported yet. If they don't report it by tomorrow's news cycle, I'd say we can discount him as a reliable source.

However, the press is already reporting, as multiple posters have pointed out, that

"the teenager actually bragged about his violent intentions prior to committing the attack on Yu.

"Look what I do to this one,""

That's from the UPI. If you're going to read racist overtones into people demanding that a violent criminal be locked up for good, you have to read racist overtones into that little gem.

Again, we'll see when tomorrow's news cycle comes around.

We need to consider when Yu was out walking. You don't go walking around in the dead of night by yourself that far up; its just stupid. You're asking to be mugged. So that's not to justify what the kids did, but it was (quite unfortunately) to be expected. So I don't see the courtroom taking the trial of these kids tremendously seriously because so many people are muggers and I'm sure they didn't think, if we mug this guy maybe he'll bolt into the street and die. They were looking to steal some money, and that's what they'll be punished for.

9 PM on a Friday is hardly the dead of night. The poor guy was just waiting for his bus, probably to AVOID walking around by himself at night. Also, there is a strong possibility that this was a hate crime, not just a mugging. These kids better get the maximum punishment possible.

And I'm up for a march too.

studies major by any chance? Hey I know, maybe we should deconstruct the hierarchies of power that made these thugs commit this terrible crime????

Reality Check. They weren't just looking to steal money you brainwashed moron, those racist thugs were also looking to beat the shit out of him just because he was Asian. Racist black people - does that blow your puny mind? Does...not..compute...BOOM!

They are responsible for his death - period, and should be swiftly shot in the forehead because there's no way they can be made into normal human beings.

Dear Columbia, please gentrify Harlem - it has no culture, black or otherwise - and kick all of this type of SCUM out of New York City. TYIA.

only if u consider 9 pm as the dead of night...which was when the bastards attacked him

and girls shouldn't wear skimpy clothing because they're asking to raped right?

the fact that you missed so many facts leads me to think this was a parody post.

otherwise, you're probably an aarp member because i dont know anybody who considers 9 pm, 'the dead of night'

also, multiple press sources are now pointing out the police are ruling out robbery as a motive--so no they werent looking to steal money- this was just horrific violence

And your entire statement is a justitfication of this event and a grounds for excusing these miscreants--which says a lot about your character

Wow #38, could you be more stupid?

It was 9 P.M., and he was in front of JTS. It's not 1977 South Bronx around here, exactly. When was the last time you were in NYC?

I walk that stretch of Broadway every night, and I am not asking to be mugged, nor have I ever been.

ONCE AGAIN: THEY WERE NOT ROBBING HIM THEY WERE NOT ROBBING HIM THEY WERE NOT ROBBING HIM

NO MATTER wat time he was walking out at night, DO NOT give the inclination that it was in any way mr. yu's fault....because it wasnt

the take back the night organizers can extend help with this one

i know generally that the march is for violence against women, but i imagine this is an issue which would transcend race, gender, etc

Hey sorry, not to fan the flames, but I forgot to mention that the creepy thing about the "Look what I do to this one" quote from the UPI is that the "source" I talked to said the kid actually said "look what i do to this chinese n*gga"

He told me this before the UPI press release came out, but it may or may not have been after the Daily News printed the quote, so I'm not sure if that corroborates his account.

After Yu was hit by the car, the guy said the 13-year old made laughing gestures and said:

"yo, son! this n*gga's dead!"

Grain of salt, please.

Well, it's bad enough that I don't think TBTN organizers won't even let males march. (correct?)

Not correct. I believe they're allowing it this year.

When is TBTN this year?

"Dear Columbia, please gentrify Harlem - it has no culture, black or otherwise - and kick all of this type of SCUM out of New York City. TYIA."

okay, see, this is out of hand. I'm sure there are plenty of anti-social fuckups where you are from, as well, but noone's suggesting erasing your town.

this thursday, starting at 8 pm.

How can anyone on this thread be so damn sure of the kids' motives already? So far we've only seen partial—and conflicting—accounts of what actually happened. Clearly those two fucked up royally and deserve to be punished to the fullest extent of the law, but you can't reliably determine a motive on such scant evidence.

Maybe they maybe they meant to beat him up because he's Chinese, maybe they meant to mug him, maybe they meant to chase him in front of a car for sport. I don't know yet, and I don't think anyone else outside of the investigation does either.

Thanks!

A) Gentrifying is not the same as nuking - I didn't say to erase Harlem, I said to gentrify it in order to get RID of the antisocial fuck ups.

B) Sorry, where I'm from, 13 year old thugs do not mug and kill students

C) The amount of crime in Harlem is obscene. Any predominantly white area with such a disgusting level of crime would be immediately targeted for improvement by city leaders. Since Harlem is full of minorities, however, it is politically incorrect - racist of course - to suggest improving. This refusal to acknowledge reality in the name of political correctness has lead to tragedy, as the poor family of Mr. Yu found out very recently.

sorry, brainfart. i meant NEXT thursday, as in thursday the 17th.

it was 9 pm, hardly the dead of night, and I am an Asian who frequently studies at UTS. So this one hits pretty hard at home you piece crap.

And yes, he was Asian so there will be no public outcry.

I know it's never going to happen, especially with his claiming he never stepped foot on Columbia soil, but -- in his speech on race, Obama said the following:

"So when [white people] are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they're told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time."

"I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe."

These kids will NEVER contribute anything positive to society--they will only eat up tax money in their incarceration and subsequent incarcerations, welfare, food stamps, etc. Everyone would be better off if they were dead. I wish they'd be executed.

What the hell is this "anti-social" argument about? I'm from Philly (NOT the suburbs, but the actual city) and there are plenty of crimes committed by juveniles and kids in gangs. Heck, a bunch of students outside my high school were attacked in February, with one student sent to the hospital. These youth attackers/"criminals" work in groups and take joy from their doings. Psychology is not a problems; it's attitude. Once this 13-year-old is free from custody, his friends are all gonna boast about how he messed another guy up for good. Send him to juvenile detention/jail for a couple years and maybe his peers will think twice before continuing their pursuits.

People, take a deep breath. Think about what you are all saying. First the problem was public housing. Let's put public housing on trial. Now the problem is all of Harlem itself. Yeah let's gentrify Harlem.

I was involved in the counter-Hunger Strike demonstration; I'm not black; no I'm not an Ethnic-Studies major, and yes I plan to work on Wall Street. I am not an apologist & I despise thug culture.

The test of our character and intellect is how we respond to times of tragedy like these. Why is America at war in Iraq? Did 9/11 cloud our judgment and make us overreact? In the heat of our panic and anger, did we forget to look at evidence?

In the heat of this racially charged tragedy, are we forgetting to look at the facts? Is it right to propose entirely changing a highly populated neighborhood, rich in history & culture (but also containing several bad elements) because of the actions of two teenage fucktards? Is it right to let the unverified testimony of this may-or-may-not-be cop rile us up to this level of rage & hatred? Has our fear from this incident given free expression on this thread to those elements on campus who finnd satisfaction in the bias incidents that have occurred? Maintain your dignity for God's sake, and remember not to let the prejudices of a juvenile delinquent change our own views on an entire community of people.

This is a time for grief, not anger. As the facts become clearer, let them determine our anger and our response.

everywhere in this post[9/11 has nothing to do with and trying to create some type of dichotomy of racists who took pride in on campus bias incidents is a highly disingenuous equivocation] (by teh way the earlier obama post was irrelevant and non sequitir) but you do make a good point--the community around columbia is generally and largely filled with hard working, honest, good people of all races

however, it is foolish to deny that there may be problems within that same community--the fact that people are angry right now at one of those problems isn't just an emotional response, but is the natural consequence of one of those problems manifesting itself in an incredibly serious and tragic manner

looking at facts works both ways and should apply both to those willing to smear and entire race upon the actions of a few and to those who will apologize to their last breath for actions from one segment of society regardless of their depravity

also, please strike out that "has our fear from this incident given free expression on this thread to those elements on campus who finnd satisfaction in the bias incidents that have occurred?" part from your post because it seems to refute your entiree second paragraph and makes you look like a complete idiot-the equivocation suggested by it is repulsive

the bias incidents of the campus consist of madeline constantine, anti semitic graffiti on walls and things which even put togther don't suggest a larger problem in teh campus---this tragic act is only one incident of a pervasive and recurring problem in this local area and you can check local crime reports to confirm that

Ray, you're absolutely right. Unless he's given a severe punishment, he's just going to be looked at as a hero by his community for being a tough thug and fucking up some poor grad student. Any hint of apologism towards these motherfuckers makes my blood boil.

1) This is a terrible tragedy and these teens are terrible people

2) We don't know yet whether this was a hate crime (someone in Bwog comments who claims to have talked to someone who claims to be a cop isn't really a reliable source), but if it was there certainly needs to be a collective response like a march

3) Comment #38 is so completely idiotic and disgusting that its almost certainly the work of a troll - though the lack of sincerity doesn't excuse anything

4) Diagnosing these teens with some sort of named psychological disorder over the internet based on a short newspaper article and using this to assert that they'll never change from the way they behave at 13 & 15 is really pretty dumb

5) Comment #18 is well justified in seeing racism in Bwog comments. In this thread and the other, we have a whole crowd of people who are condemning a whole neighborhood as criminal and therefore worthless, insisting that anyone who doesn't see one incident as justification for a massive increase in Columbia security is blinded by political correctness, and attacking, with relevance left implicit, Christien Tompkins (who I think is being confused with Anthony Kelley). It is telling, in an unfortunate way, that none of this has provoked anywhere near as much outrage from other commenters as the accusation of racism

6) Poverty, in itself, is not much of an explanation for crimes like this, but I don't understand how anyone who attends Columbia could possibly think that New York has somehow eliminated real poverty, or anything close. Do people somehow prevent themselves from even seeing all the homeless people?

"Harlem should be gentrified" is true only to the extent that gentrification would be the natural consequence if we got rid of the public/subsidized housing, something we shouldn't be supporting with tax money anyway, and appropriately policed the area, which we should be doing anyway.

Although this incident is not in itself a reason to gentrify Harlem, it is a good example of the problems that arise when people insist on using the government to actually maintain the impoverished and dangerous state of a neighborhood in the name of "preserving culture".

I don't have any desire to destroy Harlem culture (assuming we don't consider violence a part of that culture). But I also recognize that I have no duty to preserve it if it cannot survive on its own - that is, without misguided gov't officials using tax dollars to keep it going beyond its natural lifespan.

I totally agree with you on C). that's the attitude i find all the time when we give constructive criticism to blacks and they take it as racism.

You know, even though Bill Cosby got a lot of bad rap for his comments on the attitudes of African Americans in the United States, I think he is the voice of reason among a group of people who are still playing the race card and not realize that they are the ones who dropped the ball first.

Indeed, the logic that the criminals represent the nighborhood (laughable, they probably came from harassing a grandma) is the same shrill logic that let the hunger-striking set blame all of Columbia for the racism of a few assholes.

But many people have noted that NYS spends large amounts of money trying to alleviate the poverty. The problem is, in a democratic society, there is only so much they can do. The social problems and malignant culture that spawned these kids will not be solved by better housing or foodstamps.

deluded. After incidents like this & the Hunger strike, are you telling me that there wasn't a slew of racially charged comments on Bwog, that in any other situation, would have been deemed out of line? The Hunger Strikers' irrationality allowed a bunch of people to post racially charged bullshit on Bwog without fear of condemnation, knowing everybody was so wound up that they would go unnoticed. If we react stupidly and extrapolate this incident to a larger systemic problem without due consideration of the facts, those kinds of people will again be allowed to rear their ugly heads in the discussion & drive it to extremes. So the people I'm referring to are the minority of Campus Racists that do, in fact exist - maybe bias incident fans is the wrong characterization, but you know who I'm talking about.

Anyways, most people calling for the gentrification of Harlem and screaming about the Hypocrisy of racial finger-pointing absolutely did not give a shit about racism towards the Asian community. It's like when Fox news became champions of the gay community when Ahmadinejad visited.

Again, all I'm saying is keep your fucking composure, and don't make stupid generalizations & large policy suggestions without thinking long and hard.

really far from the maximum a democratic society could do against poverty. compare it to pretty much any country in europe...

the fact that "racially charged bullshit" could be posted "without fear of condemnation", and has been posted in this very thread with much less condemnation than comment 18, suggests that the hunger strikes weren't entirely wrong in seeing a larger problem at Columbia

really shouldnt be diverted into that topic. im sorry.

1) obviously

2)the comment and motives are now also cited in multiple press pieces--this point loses a bit of its merit as a result even though i agree anon bwog commentators are a completely unreliable source

3)i hope it it a troll who wrote 38 though i suspect it is not

4)i agree that psychological diagnosis or writing of a kids future is hasty--part of this is due to the visceral emotion of the entire situation

5)this is what i dont understand--there are obviously one or two idiotic commentators who are saying gentrify the entire neighborhood or other emotionally tinged stupid/racist statements. however, the vast majority of comments have pointed out a pervasive problem with crime in the surrounding community--in the last thread other crimes were even listed

the attacks on race baiters who are claiming all those who criticize are racists or who try to minimize the culprits roles here are completely warranted because they not only ignore the entire problem but also try to claim some sort of reverse victimhood--excusing such crimes is precisely what fits into this narrative

we've had people equating the now suspicious madaleine constantine/grafitti/on campus incidents as some sort of parallel of this! I'm sorry but that is an absurd comparison and is more repulsive than was are obviously emotionally charged reactions in what could possibly be a hate crime. I can guarantee you that you werent condemning overreactions when the jena 6 protests arose.

As for greater security, again this is ignoring a larger picure which has developed locally. East of morningside park is a dangerous area. In teh past 4/5 years we've had a rape, one murder at a local bar, another drive by shooting at a local bar, dozens of muggings/robberies/assaults and now this tragedy. I do not fault a single person for feeling unsafe in that environment. If graffiti and symbols can rightfully inspire the need for safe spaces, how can you belittle fear of being murdered/raped/mugged?

6)This is a much larger issue in terms of how poverty contributed to the local crime situation, how effectively poverty is being dealt with etc. However, if you look at some of the records of crimes it becaomes clear these are crimes by homeless for subsistence--a lot of these crimes are uncontrolled kids who are creating trouble for their own reasons or who want to steal luxury items--which is an entirely different case altogether.

Okay, apologies for confusion: I am not comparing this incident in anyway to the Bias incidents on campus; I was referring to a minority of people - the campus racist scum - who probably perpetrated & enjoyed seeing Columbia polarized and divided along racial lines. That's it. Don't let those people have a voice in this dialog. That is the extent of my comparison; I should have been clearer.

This is a very sad commentary on 2 black adolescents. Some ironies noted: incident took place a block from Columbia's School of Social Work and a major Jewish seminary.

If these 2 places want field work on social evils of their neighborhood, it's right there.

What Asians need is their own big-mouthed Al Sharpton to stand at the corner and condemn violence towards Asians.

you even admit in your own statement that under any other circumstances some of the comments here wouldn't be acceptable--however the fact is we do have a dead student in this case and the culprits are two local youths. the fact that there is an emotional response is no less surprising then when we had marches after the noose went up.

there certainly are likely a small number of people who do try to provoke stupidly racist reactions or take hold of issues for their own deluded social engineering views but most adults recognize those trolls for what they are and unlike you don't try to lump in legitimate discussions about racial tensions within incidents like this where it may be a true case of a hate crime or where there may be a larger sociological/race based issue

and yeah, a lot of people probably werent anti asian discrimination activists before this but the reason they are up in arms over this isn't just 'asian discrimination'. its universal, 'some poor columbia student who worked his butt off to try to make a good life for himself and wanted to contribute to the world in someway didn't deserve to die at the hands of bigots' outrage adn in this particular case applies to an asian person who was the victim.

its the universality of not having someone treated in an unjust and inhumane way--adn that was the same reason why you saw groups that you wouldn't' suspect supportign protests of ahmadinejad (though in your disgusting little world your own charicatures of fox news and probably half of middle america suggests you see them as wholly bigoted trogdolytes)

there are certainly racists on this campus or at least those who are very prejudiced

there are also idiots who are the exact equivalent on the other side

al sharpton does not speak for black people!

i'm done talking about race based discussions/other tangents

at this point this thread (maybe i'm partially at fault for responding) is veering away from teh actual tragedy

WHAT ABOUT THE KID'S PARENTS. WHY IS YOUR 13 OR 15 YEAR OLD SON OUT AT 9 PM ON 122 AND BROADWAY FUCKING WITH PEOPLE?

THE KIDS SHOULD GET A SENTENCE. THE PARENTS SHOULD GET A GREATER ONE.

WHEN I WAS 13, I WASN'T ALLOWED TO BE OUT PAST DARK. IF THEIR PARENTS ACTUALLY GAVE A SHIT, THIS COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED.

I AM ALSO APPALLED BY THE AMOUNT OF HATE I AM READING IN THESE COMMENTS. I hope you are all just angry and don't think like this.

(and columbia's role in the neighborhood) fans the flames for attacks like this; it doesn't solve them -- in the same way that the war on terror has led to higher recruitment numbers for terrorist groups rather than an end to all terrorism.

the whole situation is tragic as hell. my prayers go to yu's family.

yeah, because Europe is really devoid of racism and crime. Get a fucking clue.

What makes you think you're qualified enough to have a "legitimate" argument about racial tensions? You're assuming this is a hate crime on the testimony of one may-or-may-not-be-cop speaking to an anonymous bwog commenter. It may well turn out to be true, but then again it might not. It's very dangerous to make this into a larger discussion about Racial problems and fan racial tensions, when we don't fully know the facts yet.

Yes, the Black community needs to actively address issues of poverty, education and crime; but just because you're in the same college as the victim, you're suddenly qualified to tell them what Public policies are appropriate for their community, & how they shoudl behave? Get real.

Case in point: You spun my Fox News analogy and assumed that I consider all of Middle America to be bigots. What a dumbass you are. Don't talk beyond what you know.

please. As I said in my first post, "This is a time for grief, not anger. As the facts become clearer, let them determine our anger and our response."

it appalls me that some parents don't know how to raise children. 13 YEARS OLD! and you've already let your child run with the wrong crowd. shame on those parents.

"this is what i dont understand--there are obviously one or two idiotic commentators who are saying gentrify the entire neighborhood or other emotionally tinged stupid/racist statements."

Calling for the gentrification of the neighborhood isn't racist. Wanting to better police the neighborhood and get rid of criminals isn't racist - that's just smart. Wanting to fix the neighborhood up and make it a nice place to live isn't racist either - it's a very nice idea actually.

on bored@columbia:

[ external link to newyork.craigslist.org ]

exceptionally well-written and SPOT ON.

one last bit. please read the news articles

the idea this may be hate motivated isn't from a bwog commentator--you've obviously just came on here to muck up controversy because there are multiple sources suggesting it may have been motivated by soemthing other than robbery

and as a member of a university which is in the middle and part of the community i wholly reserve the right to criticize elements, action and problems of the community that make me feel unsafe--just as anybody in a community can--nice try on the race bait

finally, the foxnews leap wasn't a big one. you came in an criticized those who are disgusted at the notion this might have been a hate crime by tryign to delegitimize their ownership of the incident upon ethnic lines. you then spun a retarded analogy about how fox news and that demographic were anti ahmadinejad despite the charicature you obviously have of them (remember in iran, there are documented cases of government executions of gays)--don't blame me for calling you on it

as for the craigslist post please. i almost hurled at the claim the blood is on the hands of rangel--i'm sure a guy who's worked hard for this district wanted this to happen

i'm out of this thread

It takes a lot to make me condone corporal punishment, but a turn over the knee and a smack across the ass might have done that kid some good.

spot on?? the man actually wrote "a generation of low-achieving savages" -- not just the two youths responsible, a *whole generation*.

i understand he's angry at the loss of his friend; i understand that a lot of people are angry right now. but a whole generation of savages? this kind of divisiveness is simply not acceptable. it fuels hatred, not stops it.

yeah we need to stop this hijacking of the thread - thats part of the problem with the racially-sketchy comments, after all. im just going to respond to one of the sections of #71, and then im done.

"the vast majority of comments have pointed out a pervasive problem with crime in the surrounding community--in the last thread other crimes were even listed"

well, in the last thread and this, I'm seeing a lot of comments like:

**"Dear Columbians: This is what happens when you support public housing. Please stop."

**"This is obviously caused by the decades of oppression that the Asian man has inflicted on the Black man."

**"It makes me so angry that just because a couple of violent black thugs want a fucking iPod, they're willing to kill a man for it."

**"continue to place my faith in empirical evidence and statistical analysis by keeping a suspicious eye on all black thugs I see in the streets. God bless gentrification."

**"preserve thug culture -- stop columbia expansion!"

**"Given that the community likes to mug and kill Columbians, I think it's high time that Columbia said the following to the community: "Fuck You!"

**"Sounds like a Hate Crime to me. Oh, wait, the victim wasn't black. NEVER MIND."

**"These kids will NEVER contribute anything positive to society--they will only eat up tax money in their incarceration and subsequent incarcerations, welfare, food stamps, etc. Everyone would be better off if they were dead. I wish they'd be executed."

**"Dear Columbia, please gentrify Harlem - it has no culture, black or otherwise - and kick all of this type of SCUM out of New York City. TYIA."

the level of resentment against black people and the Harlem community seems to be pretty high. check out the way the suspects' race is always mentioned (vs say their gender, which is probably better correlated with this kind of crime), or the repeated use of the racially-tinged word "thug", rather than some equally condemnatory but racially neutral word like "murderer" or "psychopath" or just "asshole". and then of course there's the demands for comment from Anthony Kelley and Christien Tompkins, who have no relation to the crime except that they're black. (if it was that they were leftists, why not David Judd or Karina Garcia, otherwise Bwog hate favorites?)

"race baiters who are claiming all those who criticize are racists or who try to minimize the culprits roles"

i dont think anyone has either claimed everyone who's angry at these murderers is a racist, or tried to minimize their roles. even comment #18 does neither (these kids' responsibility is not mutually exclusive with any social context).

"we've had people equating the now suspicious madaleine constantine/grafitti/on campus incidents as some sort of parallel of this!"

in fact we haven't. comment #72 clarifies, though i think it was already clear enough.

"As for greater security... East of morningside park is a dangerous area."

i'm not saying that there's anything wrong with calling for greater security. i *am* saying that there are reasons to doubt that this crime proves we need greater security besides "political correctness". it's one incident, which may or may not be part of a statistical pattern; it may or may not be clear how security could be increased in a way likely to prevent future incidents which are unlikely to have identical circumstances; there may be unreasonable costs, financial or otherwise, to increased security. whether or not any of those arguments is valid, none relies on "political correctness".

is APAAM doing anything regarding this event? i think if BSO collaborated, we could both appropriately remember minghui and help mitigate a lot of the anti-black rhetoric being thrown around.

my parents started with nothing and busted their asses off to get to where we are today...without relying on welfare (because we're not given any benefits) and envying and bullying others. not fucking fair...the gov't needs to stop helping these people

good points and some points i clearly but would politely like to disagree with (some of the things you characterize as resentment i feel are valid statements, the campus bias incidents that also stretch back to the last thread, some of the other local crimes and incidents which were documented in the last thread which i do think call for a questioning of security, and the male/female vs racial correlation is probably not a better one like you assume) but i'm not going to post a response here

i'm sure there will be talk on campus about these issues and who knows, maybe bwog will allow an adults only comment thread on some of these sensitive issues at which point i'd welcome talkign to those who may have differing opinions but like you i have no more interest of continuing what are now derivative discussions on a post about a particular and tragic incident

Same here. That craigslist post was amazing.

is black and a Columbia grad to boot. His article says everything perfectly:

[ external link to opinionjournal.com ]

77 - No offense, but you sound really suburban. I remember taking buses that late in Philly at night when I was 14. 9pm isn't that late for Daylight Savings hours.

That craigslist posting looks like it could've been written by me. But it's not. Crazy that anyone shares my opinions.

I've actually mentioned the free housing, welfare, etc. twice on this site, once on a post in this thread, and once in a post on the last thread.

Crazy.

to express my sympathy for the driver of the SUV. No need to say it was no fault of his or her that any of this happened. I can't imagine what this feels like. My utmost condolences to Mr. Yu's family and although I never knew Mr. Yu, I still feel his absence.

no, no, that post wasn't amazing. it's a major parsing to the 'failure' of the welfare state from one act of horrific violence. the argument comes from an angry, bigoted point of view and it's an uncalled-for addition to the conversation.

it's one thing to use this tragedy to confront liberal apologism, but can we leave out the Reagan-era denial of institutionalized racism?

#68, PLEASE do tell us what they do in utopian Europe that is not done in NYC to "alleviate poverty" (as if it were a terminal illness!).

--Free housing, constitutionally guaranteed, in the most crowded city in the hemisphere?

Check!

--Free food?

Check!

--Free universal healthcare?

Check!

--Monthly checks to low-income single mothers?

Check!

--Access to a world-class education system?

Check! (e.g., Stuyvesant HS)

--Affirmative action and non-discriminatory policies?

Check!

Please, #68, also come out on the record as saying that "poverty" made them do it!

"it's one thing to use this tragedy to confront liberal apologism, but can we leave out the Reagan-era denial of institutionalized racism?"

New York City is institutionally racist? Wha?

Or did you mean Columbia?

We are dealing with an entire generation of these people. This is not an isolated incident: violence is often committed by poor African-Americans whose lives are basically subsidized by the government. It is epidemic and we need to start discussing the problem in those terms, however uncomfortable.

From the Sowell article:

"The counterproductive and self-destructive culture of black rednecks in today's ghettos is regarded by many as the only "authentic" black culture--and, for that reason, something not to be tampered with. Their talk, their attitudes, and their behavior are regarded as sacrosanct."

I think this is where the problem lies. We need to separate "authentic black culture" from this so-called "redneck" culture. That way, we can preserve Harlem and the aspects of black culture that are truly worth preserving without accidentally keeping the violence and thug culture in the same bundle.

As to how we can do this, I'm completely lost. Anyone care to offer suggestions?

(This post is not meant to be sarcastic at all. I'm genuinely trying to figure out a solution to the situation, which has turned out to be a far larger problem than I anticipated. I'm feeling helpless right now, and the grief of the loss of one of our students adds to the pain.)

"Poverty, in itself, is not much of an explanation for crimes like this, but I don't understand how anyone who attends Columbia could possibly think that New York has somehow eliminated real poverty, or anything close. Do people somehow prevent themselves from even seeing all the homeless people?"

The government of New York City is required by the courts to provide those homeless people with shelter. If they are out on the streets, it is because they refuse to accept the help from social outreach workers. That's the point. No matter how many well-intentioned programs we put into place, social ills cannot be completely eliminated.

Interesting example, since Stuyvesant bases its acceptance policy entirely on the Specialized High Schools Admissions Test. A typical incoming class is ~50% Asian and ~40% White. What was that about affirmative action, again?

The point is that a poor black kid from the projects can get in, if he does well on the SH SAT. No racism.

As a poor minority kid who was able to pass my tests. I know it's possible

Boy, it pisses me off when people confuse correlation with causation. Is there a higher crime rate among blacks than among the general population in the U.S.? Yes. Does that mean these two fools attacked Minghui because they were black? No.

White people have been known to mug, murder, and accept welfare, too, but how often does the explanation 'they did it because they're white' gain traction?

Do you really think there's something intrinsically different about people with dark skin that incline them to be poor or commit crimes? Or do you think maybe there are other factors contributing to the disproportionate poverty and crime rate among blacks like, I don't know, the crippling legacy of slavery, segregation, and ill-conceived social welfare programs? I'm not trying to excuse any individual incident -- criminals deserve to be punished for their crimes -- but it's useful to examine broader social phenomena rather than spew racist filth.

Yes, there are plenty of ailing social programs that need retooling. And yes, it's fair to call on people to be more responsible about how they raise their children (in fact, I wish the parents of some of my classmates had heeded that advice). But the "blacks are ungrateful!" bit is ludicrous. The 'black community' is not a monolith, nor has history cut it a whole lot of slack.

You try pulling yourself up by your bootstraps when you're stuck with a crappy income, little economic activity, terrible housing/schools, and ingrained racist tendencies (among Ivy League students, for example). Do you really think people want or choose to live under those circumstances?

If we were armed and they knew we were armed, these kinds of attacks wouldn't happen. Black kids in this neighborhood make sport of whites and Asians because they know we cannot or fight back.

Should have read "cannot or will not fight back."

I agree with you that it's important to look at the causes but it is also important to look at the event itself. The choice of victim was simple and based on a racist notion that Asians and whites are meek and won't fight back. Same think with the kid from NYU who was chased into traffic "Get the white guy."

nice troll, mcfister

i just realized that nearly everyone who posted on this thread, including me, is an idiot.

i got really worked up and my blood got a-boiling over this story. the whole situation just sucks.

mea culpa. mea culpa. mea maxima culpa.

for that fucker.

There are plenty of disadvantaged blacks, Asians and whites who've pulled themselves out of far worse situations than being on welfare. Friday night's event wasn't even a case of robbery for food money or drugs. It was a case of a malicious animal picking easy prey. I don't whether he's black or white. He's an animal, and deserves to be put down like one.

my parents came to america legally with absolutely nothing..they had to borrow money to come here so they were actually in debt, my mom began by babysitting for $2/hr (this is 1990s) and my dad spent every waking minute studying in school....they worked their butts off to make a modest living....those people sucking up welfare and doing nothing but commit crimes, they have no excuse - those ppl need to get off their lazy ass and do something about it. helping those ppl have not helped anyone...basically throwing away hard earned tax money

Were you taking a bus to go home from some legitimate event/place or to wander around some neighborhood, looking for a fight?

before you bring on your cries of racism and other bullshit, I'd like to echo 113's comments. I came here with my parents with $200 in our cumulative pockets. We made something of ourselves. And before that we lived in a country where you could not go to college if you had too much of a Jew-nose. And you could not get a PhD because your passport said "Jew." And unlike here, where these assholes riot every time a murderer is "unjustly" shot in the streets, back there we didn't have Rev. Jesse Jackson to cause a riot when a group of antisemitic bastards tried to kick your ass after school. And guess what, my family fought their way to respect and to some measure of success, and we didn't become petty criminals or murderers. And neither did any of our relatives or just-as-Jewish friends. So don't come to me with your gentrification and slavery crap, because you don't know SHIT. Of all places on this earth, this is the one country where those excuses just don't fly.