The Blue and White: I just read the article in The New York Times that covered your arrival at Barnard. There was a quote in which you described your "undeniably circuitous route" to Barnard. Were you referring to the fact that you didn't go to a women's college, or...?
Debora Spar: All of the above. So, I didn't go to a women's college. I didn't go to a liberal arts college. I have spent my life at large research universities, and arguably two of the more male large research universities: Georgetown, which is male because of the Jesuits, and Harvard, which is known as a pretty male place. So, I was making reference then and would make reference again to the fact that I'm really not an obvious person to have wandered into a small women's liberal arts college.
But it was no accident that I stumbled into the door here. One of the things that I learned as I spent more than 20 years in these large, major research institutions is that, although I loved them, and I was very happy at both of these places, I went down this path presuming that women's education and the professional career of a woman of my age would be equal to that of a man.
But it slowly dawned on me, and virtually all of my female friends, that that wasn't true. And even though a lot of the obvious barriers to women's education and professional advancement have undeniably come down, there are lots of subtler barriers. I had been spending more and more time in my last job involved in women's studies, working on my last book on reproductive medicine. It became increasingly interesting to me and important to me to actually be able to say, "What is different still for women trying to get ahead in the world?"
B&W: Can you elaborate on the idea of "subtle barriers"? Does that idea come out of reacting against these very male environments you were in, or does it come out of scientific and statistical data you've studied, like those in your book, The Baby Business?
DS: I think it's both and more. One of the classic barriers that remains is biology. Even with all the advances in reproductive technology, women still bear children, and that's likely to continue, for some period of time, although there are people in China working on artificial wombs. But putting that aside, if you have a man and a woman who start off at exactly the same career point and they get married, and even if they are both passionately committed to co-parenting and sharing all the responsibilities, we just know statistically over time, in virtually all cases, a woman's going to wind up doing more of the household duties, which means her career is going to take a hit.
There's another whole set of subtler, more social issues about how a professional environment treats a woman who's had a child. And then there are the nastier ones about how a woman presents herself and how a woman's ideas are taken relative to a man's. So, there are these very complicated phenomena, and I think what makes them interesting—and also depressing—is that you can't legislate them away. So, it's very, very easy to say to colleges, universities, golf clubs, etc., that you must admit women. That's a legislative idea. It's much more difficult to say, "Let's treat women equally." Because what does that actually mean?
I think one of the things I've seen in my career is that many men who are trying to do the right things are so scared of somehow doing it wrong around women that they're nervous. They don't want to mentor women. They don't want to invite a woman out for dinner or a drink because it might be misperceived, but insofar as professional and personal advancement comes from interpersonal interaction with senior colleagues, women are losing out on those things. And again, it's very, very difficult. You can't say to a man, "You must have beer after work with your female colleague."
B&W: How does a women's college come into that scenario?
DS: It's a good question. It's obviously not just about educating women because there are men around. And these things will only work if everyone is equally educated. But I don't think we've solved the prior problem: What is the answer that we're educating people towards? We have to do some serious research that's not ideological or designed to beat anybody up. What do women do different than men? What kind of responsibilities or what maternity leave practices are most successful? Once we have the answers, then we can start educating people. So, I think women's colleges have not only the opportunity, but also probably the responsibility, to do some hard research.
B&W: It seems like Barnard is the perfect place for this type of research to happen because students get to observe both all-female and coed classroom dynamics, and how they're different.
DS: Barnard is unique in that you can research these women's issues and then test them out in a coed environment.
B&W: How will your curiosity about these areas take shape in your new job—in support for faculty research or student initiatives?
DS: All of the above. The Barnard Center for Research on Women is a phenomenal resource, but like everything else at Barnard, it's underfunded. I would love to see more funding going into the work they're already doing and then branching out. From what I know about the Speaking Fellows program, it's a wonderful idea. But it's broader than speaking, presentation and negotiation skills. Do women negotiate differently than men do? I don't know, but I have a feeling they do. Some of the research that colleagues of mine have been doing at Harvard Business School and elsewhere is on how women investment bankers behave differently than men investment bankers. Not better or worse, just how they use networks of contacts is different. Certainly, I wouldn't want to see all of Barnard doing research on women's issues, but it's a good place to be doing this kind of work. And its being in the city is ideal. It's your laboratory.
B&W: I'm sure you know about the transgender student who enrolled at Barnard last year. I think the impression among many students here was that Barnard kind of swept that issue under the rug, when it could have been an opportunity for discussion. Do you have any thoughts on the matter?
DS: I think last year it would have been too soon because there was just one particular student involved, and I think it's always disastrous to make policy or have debates when there's an identifiable individual at the center of the debate. It's just cruel. Having said that, I think now or sometime in the future would be a possible time. I'm going to take my cues from the faculty and students' interests. One of the things I've learned in past lives is that any initiative that comes down from on high doesn't work. Administrative decisions rarely change the world. Change has to bubble up.
B&W: You're probably tired of this topic already, but let's move on to the relationship between Barnard and Columbia. There's always talk about how great it is for Barnard to have access to Columbia. But what does Barnard provide to Columbia?
DS: That's a very good question, and I'm going to hedge it a little bit. I think part of the challenge for Barnard is to make clearer what it does for Columbia, because I think it does a lot. I think it's a useful exercise for Barnard to understand its own strengths and what it offers. I always used to say to my MBA students that the best leverage in any relationship is to be loved.
B&W: Do you have any specific examples?
DS: Well Barnard offers a tremendous amount. Part of it is Barnard brings an additional differentiation of skills and division of labor. It doesn't make sense to have separate drama departments. It makes sense for one side of the road to specialize and to have a world-class drama department, while the other school has a full, world-class Urdu department. Probably both schools could have political science departments, economics departments, and English departments, but there are advantages in specialization.
Historically, Barnard has had incredibly strengths—drama, creative writing. For people who want to do creative writing, this is where you want to be. The Writing Fellows and the Speaking Fellows programs—these are really good programs, and the fact that they are available to Columbia students is an incredible opportunity. I don't know Columbia well at all...but Barnard offers one of the classic advantages of small liberal arts colleges—small classes. And even a Columbia student who's really happy with where they are and the classes they're taking is probably going to want some opportunities to take a class with fifteen students from teachers who define themselves, at least in large part, by their experience and their expertise as teachers, which is different than someone who defines themselves largely as being a researcher.
B&W: Looking at the topics you've written books on, it seems that your own interests are kind of...
DS: All over the map?
B&W: What tied it together for me was the sense of some sort of cultural Zeitgeist, or a relation to what's relevant to us now. Do you think that's a fair assessment of your research?
DS: I think it is, to some extent. I think a part of me is a journalist at the core. I do have a particular affection for big questions that are occurring in society. One of my colleagues once described my work better than I could. He said, "Professor Spar is somebody who always looks at businesses on the edge." And I thought that was actually a good summary. I've never done research on any kind of big, conservative businesses that have been around for a long time.
B&W: You're working on a book about the global water market right now?
DS: Struggling to. I'm not sure I'll have time to write a book on the global water market in this job. It might end up being a series of papers on the global water market.
B&W: Did you get interested in that topic because it's very current, or because of a specific event?
DS: It was somewhat random to be honest. One of the things that really fascinated me both in the baby book and in the Internet book was: how do you figure out what you can sell? For example, we know we can always sell a pen because there are things like property rights and currency systems that work for pens, but how do you do that when it's babies? How do you own water? You actually can, but people don't like to think they can.
B&W: Do you think these big questions you're asking have any relation to your job at Barnard? Do you feel like you're selling something here?
DS: No. I feel like the research that I do is actually quite separate from my administrative responsibilities. Even I can't find a connection. But I think I've picked up a fair amount by spending 17 years at Harvard Business School, about what, at business school, you call competitive advantage. And what someone might think about as "that special something." I think it goes back to your earlier question about how Barnard defines itself vis-à-vis Columbia. I think there's a prior question: how does Barnard define itself? One of the tricks for any organization is to realize what you have that makes you special, and what you can build from what you already have, rather than saying, "Gee, I wish I could be something different."
B&W: That sounds very applicable to the life of a Barnard student. A Barnard freshman, from the day she sets foot on campus, is immediately bombarded with these questions of identity. Though to a certain extent, this probably happens at all colleges.
DS: Yeah, although it's probably magnified here because everything's magnified here.
B&W: If you could replace the phrase "Strong, Beautiful" with any other adjectives you've found to describe Barnard students so far, what would they be?
DS: I wouldn't replace, but I would add "energetic" and "engaged." That's one of the things that struck me. I haven't bumped into a lot of passive, cynical, world-weary types. The young women here seem excited about a range of things—but whatever they're doing, they're excited. I haven't seen anyone yet who's withdrawn. I would add those 'e' words: enthusiastic, energetic, engaged.
B&W: Any thoughts on how the Nexus is going?
DS: Well, I'm just glad it's reached the point in construction that I can actually see across campus. My husband's an architect—he does, bizarrely, university architecture—and he thinks it's going to be a gorgeous building. They've really done the right thing. They have a bold design and a bold conception. And it's going to be spectacular.
B&W: Do you have any words of wisdom for the freshmen with whom you will be sharing your first year?
DS: Please put up with the Nexus. It's not too much longer. I promise it will be over. And otherwise, just have fun and experiment. Safely, you know, and legally. Even if something sounds completely obscure, go for it. Go to that belly dancing class.
—Lauren Glover
